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Since water is so important to beavers in this game I am surprised that you don't have some kind of pipe and a powered pump for the pipes in this game.  Currently the only to move water is on the backs of beavers, and it is extremely inefficient.  Pipes can work like the power shafts you currently have, but would be better with some slight differences.  Have a max flow throughput so we are not putting an entire river through the pipe, maybe say capped at 1/4 or 1/8 a cubic block of water.  Make water elevators a separate buildings, much like the floodgates, to lift the water a fixed number of blocks high.  You can make these beaver powered or if you want to save them for later endgame make them HP driven.  With pipes and powered pumps we could make plateaus green, empty flooded areas, pump water back up stream, or supply remote districts with water.  It would expand gameplay and increase the variety of builds in the game.  

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I'm not against the idea but I think it needs to be taken into consideration with caution.

They would have to be a late-game tech, with a high science req, made mostly of metal and it'd have to require a LOT of it to accomplish anything meaningful simply for the sake of balance. Why bother building dams and/or canals (the beaver aesthetic) if you could just redirect the entire river with pumps and pipes? Even with flow restrictions players could get around it by simply building another pipeline (or twelve.) I do wish for some means to build crops on solid rooftops, and buildings like the Bakery & Paper Mill could/should required a water input. Pipes would allow for both.


Kinda sorta related: I'd like to see techs require a specific knowledge rating combined with their arbitrary number of accumulated science points. It would add some depth to the techs, make it a tree of sorts, and provide a use for books other than the goal.

Edited by G4M5T3R
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On 9/26/2021 at 6:52 AM, G4M5T3R said:

I'm not against the idea but I think it needs to be taken into consideration with caution.

They would have to be a late-game tech, with a high science req, made mostly of metal and it'd have to require a LOT of it to accomplish anything meaningful simply for the sake of balance. Why bother building dams and/or canals (the beaver aesthetic) if you could just redirect the entire river with pumps and pipes? Even with flow restrictions players could get around it by simply building another pipeline (or twelve.) I do wish for some means to build crops on solid rooftops, and buildings like the Bakery & Paper Mill could/should required a water input. Pipes would allow for both.


Kinda sorta related: I'd like to see techs require a specific knowledge rating combined with their arbitrary number of accumulated science points. It would add some depth to the techs, make it a tree of sorts, and provide a use for books other than the goal.

I think it could be early game or mid game but not 100% metal, they have wood gears, why not wood pipes? But some type of system to have water flowing up to a top of a map that looks like it should have water flowing from it or some type of prying thing to allow tow beaver gods to bless the land and make water come from the place that it looks like it should come from maybe?

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On 9/27/2021 at 7:14 PM, Kuroo said:

I think it could be early game or mid game but not 100% metal, they have wood gears, why not wood pipes? But some type of system to have water flowing up to a top of a map that looks like it should have water flowing from it or some type of prying thing to allow tow beaver gods to bless the land and make water come from the place that it looks like it should come from maybe?

To avoid the aforementioned issues?

Wood is sustainable and easily obtainable. Once the basic needs are covered there's really nothing preventing you from spamming Inventors and rushing "late-game" tech aside from the high science cost and/or any manufactured resource requirements (hence my suggestion regarding Knowledge) Heck, I'd argue that on Hard (depending on the level ofc) you practically HAVE to rush the Levee and Floodgate(s) if you want to stand any chance of surviving to mid-game yet alone late-game. So what's to stop the meta from becoming "just rush pipes"? Especially if they're leaky and irrigate the surrounding area.

There are an infinite number of ways to handle the implementation of pipes with care. Maybe wood pipes don't include a Raised Pipe option. Maybe they only connect pumps to barrels and/or dumps. Maybe the time & resources required to achieve anything meaningful makes the option to rush a non-starter regardless of wood or metal. Or D - All of the above.

There are a couple of maps where there are dead rivers that start at the top of a mountain and pipes are really the only viable solution to get them flowing again. Which is why I'm not entirely against the idea, but simply adding them for the sake of adding them would do more harm than good. imo*

Edited by G4M5T3R
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2 hours ago, G4M5T3R said:

To avoid the aforementioned issues?

Wood is sustainable and easily obtainable. Once the basic needs are covered there's really nothing preventing you from spamming Inventors and rushing "late-game" tech aside from the high science cost and/or any manufactured resource requirements (hence my suggestion regarding Knowledge) Heck, I'd argue that on Hard (depending on the level ofc) you practically HAVE to rush the Levee and Floodgate(s) if you want to stand any chance of surviving to mid-game yet alone late-game. So what's to stop the meta from becoming "just rush pipes"? Especially if they're leaky and irrigate the surrounding area.

There are an infinite number of ways to handle the implementation of pipes with care. Maybe wood pipes don't include a Raised Pipe option. Maybe they only connect pumps to barrels and/or dumps. Maybe the time & resources required to achieve anything meaningful makes the option to rush a non-starter regardless of wood or metal. Or D - All of the above.

There are a couple of maps where there are dead rivers that start at the top of a mountain and pipes are really the only viable solution to get them flowing again. Which is why I'm not entirely against the idea, but simply adding them for the sake of adding them would do more harm than good. imo*

Or maybe we just don't consider any of that, since there will always be a "best option" for the meta that will get rushed. 

 

The only thing that matters is whether said "best option" is fun to use. 

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Just now, Yunru said:

Or maybe we just don't consider any of that, since there will always be a "best option" for the meta that will get rushed. 

A meta is unavoidable, but your access to it can be artificially restricted via progression.

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Just now, G4M5T3R said:

A meta is unavoidable, but your access to it can be artificially restricted via progression.

All that'll do is increase the rush to it, and frustration as those chasing it fail to reach it. 

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I beg to differ. Go try and rush the Irontail's engine. I can think of 2 or 3 maps where you might be able to pull that off. Same thing but different. Be it the time/resources required or an actual requirement to "unlock" the tech via Knowledge it's all the same at the end of the day.

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Didn't read the thread (sorry) but I just thought about potential energy (as one does). So here is my addition to powered pumps: If the game has the ability to move (pump) water from one level to a higher, and the game has the ability to create energy by moving water, you could store energy by pumping water to a lake in some higher level and then slowly drain that lake when you need more energy. I think that's amazing because the system would consist of simple buildings but it takes a bit of creativity to arrive at the conclusion that you can combine them to create energy storage. 

Obviously, there are a lot of potential (hehe) exploits hidden in this. When you can create more energy then it requires to pump the water to a higher location, then you just invented free energy. And maybe one could combine a water wheel + damm so that the player can control whether or not to create energy & release water. 

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34 minutes ago, William said:

Obviously, there are a lot of potential (hehe) exploits hidden in this. When you can create more energy then it requires to pump the water to a higher location, then you just invented free energy. 

This could be balanced with a power requirement to pump the water uphill. We already do this irl with water based gravity batteries.  

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26 minutes ago, G4M5T3R said:

This could be balanced with a power requirement to pump the water uphill. We already do this irl with water based gravity batteries.  

I know. But implementing this in game is a different thing than having to deal with it IRL 🙂 The water system in game, though it's actually simulating water, is still a rough approximation. So you'd have to be careful making sure that the player doesn't find some way to cheat the system and somehow take more energy out than initially put in.

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Technically, we already can with an absurd amount of water dumps. The cost being the food/water to keep everything running instead of power. iirc you need a minimum of 6 dumps to create enough flow to spin a water wheel.

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